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mattfraction
Joined: 26 Feb 2006
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Location: kcmo
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 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | That whole thing is a trainwreck-- this bit from the "not enough indie comics at NYCC" guy in the Beat comment section jumps out: And, no offense, but I don’t really think of Oni as “indy” — not in the way Fantagraphics, D&W, Top Shelf, and Alternative are indy… Sure, sure. Little known fact: Oni Comics? owned by the railroads. |
some publishers take some ownership and control of numerous rights connected to a property that those other guys don't. comment-guy might just be a snob or just retarded, but he might actually have accidentally made a point: when any smaller publisher takes some aspect control and ownership from creators, is the "independent" sobriquet wholly accurate? independent from marvel or DC? sure, bravo, but they still engage in WFH practices which was, and is, contrary to what the independent press movement was, and is, all about. parse it any way you like, but a creator-participation deal is not the same thing as being creator-owned.
EDIT: to remove specific references to publishers. I apparently misunderstood a few deals and was misinformed about others. mea culpa.
Last edited by mattfraction on Thu May 01, 2008 6:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Abhay
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| mattfraction wrote: | | oni takes ownership and control of numerous rights connected to a property that those other guys don't. comment-guy might just be a snob or just retarded, but he might actually have accidentally made a point: when Oni, or AiT, or BOOM!, or any of these other publishers take control and ownership from creators, is the "independent" sobriquet wholly accurate? independent from marvel or DC? sure, bravo, but they still engage in WFH practices which was, and is, contrary to what the independent press movement was, and is, all about. parse it any way you like, but a creator-participation deal is not the same thing as being creator-owned. |
You're probably right. I have no idea. I know as a marketing term, "indie" ceases to be meaningful or have utility for me as a consumer if it starts excluding certain books.
but I have no idea who takes how much or how much control they exert, so I can't really argue it.
I know Oni takes a chunk of the Hollywood money, but-- it seems like they provide their cartoonists with connections to help them make their deal. so part of me recoils, but i don't know if that's money those cartoonists wouldn't have seen otherwise. But I don't know how what that translates to for, like, the North Wind guy or whoever in real money terms. I have no idea. I don't know what the contract was like for Top Shelf and the Surrogates, either. So I just-- I don't know how to judge that.
I just think a conversation that says there aren't enough indie books at a particular con that hinges on that level of contract particulars though is just going to wind up super misleading. on a content level-- Top Shelf books aren't the same as Oni books, but they're not on different planets. A discriminating palette can tell them apart, maybe, but...
Boom and Fanta books are on different planets but that's... i think as much a reflection of the personalities and tastes of the people working for those companies than contract particulars so...
though it'd be great if Boom changed their business philosophy and the next day, Mark Waid's like "This is the comic I always wanted to tell about incest in the 1920's. Fuck you, I'm an artist now!" Mark Waid's SEX WITH MY FLAPPER SISTER, as drawn by Paul Azaceta. I would read that comic book. |
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mattfraction
Joined: 26 Feb 2006
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Location: kcmo
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Abhay wrote: |
You're probably right. I have no idea. I know as a marketing term, "indie" ceases to be meaningful or have utility for me as a consumer if it starts excluding certain books. |
well, sure, but this isn't wasn't brought up as a consumer/marketing issue-- not that I disagree with you on the uselessness of "indie" as a marketing term, quite the opposite in fact. but it's specious to superimpose that metric on the intial statement, in spite of how retarded that thread got.
| Quote: | | I know Oni takes a chunk of the Hollywood money, but-- it seems like they provide their cartoonists with connections to help them make their deal. so part of me recoils, but i don't know if that's money those cartoonists wouldn't have seen otherwise. |
which is why it's not creator owned or independent-- it's creator particiaption and ulitmately work for hire.
And re: how much money anyone gets: why not go halvsies on a lottery ticket? the money is all hypothetical. that's not the point, to me. it's the control that's the issue; who gets to chart the course for the book? The whole independent press movement was predicated on the creator being in sole control of the book's fate, market forces aside. And those publishers-- who don't want to hook creators up with "their guys" in hollywood, who don't insist on right of first refusal, who don't care about who gets a cut of the underroos, etc etc-- are a dying breed.
| Quote: | | I just think a conversation that says there aren't enough indie books at a particular con that hinges on that level of contract particulars though is just going to wind up super misleading. |
that's not neufeld's fault, or even the Comment Guy, giving him the benefit of the doubt. that's the internet thinking it knows what the fuck it's talking about. if you want to find a publisher that just wants to publish books, protect and promote those books, and nurture their creators, you have to look really hard these days. And NYCC didn't give any juice to the guys that do. And the guys that do aren't gonna gain marketshare if they're shunted next to men's room at shows like that.
anyway, it's a really important issue to a lot of people, a lot of creators, and it bugs me to see it trivialized. if image won't have you, and icon doesn't invite you, is there any publisher you can go to that's not just going to run your shit and remove power and responsibility from your hands?
| Quote: | | Mark Waid's SEX WITH MY FLAPPER SISTER, as drawn by Paul Azaceta. |
Azaceta would rock that.[/quote] |
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Ivan Brandon
Joined: 31 Oct 2006
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mattfraction
Joined: 26 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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• people are probably being snobby
• people are stupid
• snobs are probably being meta-snobby-- My SLG can out-hip your ONI, etc.
• that is so stupid as to make one's teeth explode
• also a point: the independent press ain't what it used to be, and if you don't want a fucking partner that disempowers you, the options are slim these days |
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Hugh Stewart
Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 196
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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Matt Fraction, comic books have been kidnapped by capitalists.
Are you a bad enough dude to rescue them?
(I wish I had something positive or intelligent to add to this conversation, but I'd be punching above my weight-level, I think. If you guys want to talk about social constructions or Marx or something, let me know though! We can Dialectic All Night Long) |
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Abhay
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | anyway, it's a really important issue to a lot of people, a lot of creators, and it bugs me to see it trivialized. if image won't have you, and icon doesn't invite you, is there any publisher you can go to that's not just going to run your shit and remove power and responsibility from your hands? |
Hmmm, yeah, I was overly flip to begin with. You're right....
-abhay |
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mattfraction
Joined: 26 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| well, ivan told me some of the inane shit in the comments, so clearly i was ascribing some pretty lofty motives to, uh, people clearly not thinking the same way... |
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Abhay
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:10 am Post subject: |
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ho'damn-- Spurgeon on NYCC:
If you feel comics are the best part of the comics industry, NYCC 2008 may have been for you as it was for me a terrible show, bland and pointless, the kind of event that calls into question the entire enterprise more than it makes a case for the ascendancy of a shining new example.
...
There's a sickness at comics' core that many may not recognize because for the first time since 1992 and maybe 1947 it comes from success, not deprivation. |
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Ivan Brandon
Joined: 31 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But other than perhaps for those blogging about comics and working in the field in the immediate vicinity, the NYCC still feels like a non-essential show. |
that's a hell of a generalization that does not at all reflect what i heard from anyone on the floor.
for example for the foreign professionals i spoke to who only fly into the country once a year, this is officially their san diego replacement, almost unanimously.
i don't really care to defend the show, but i spoke to an absurd amount of people all weekend and while i won't say everything was perfect or that anyone thought so, i will say that for my part i thought things had much improved from 07 and of the people i spoke to the vast majority were coming back, even with the announcement of its return to february.
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marco
Joined: 27 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Ivan Brandon wrote: | | Quote: | | But other than perhaps for those blogging about comics and working in the field in the immediate vicinity, the NYCC still feels like a non-essential show. |
that's a hell of a generalization that does not at all reflect what i heard from anyone on the floor.
for example for the foreign professionals i spoke to who only fly into the country once a year, this is officially their san diego replacement, almost unanimously.
i don't really care to defend the show, but i spoke to an absurd amount of people all weekend and while i won't say everything was perfect or that anyone thought so, i will say that for my part i thought things had much improved from 07 and of the people i spoke to the vast majority were coming back, even with the announcement of its return to february. |
comic conventions seem to be the same as comic book movies, comic book will flock to them, then complain about them,i wish i could go to more shows just because i like comics in general. |
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RantzH
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 671
Location: south of Hell
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Ivan Brandon wrote: | that's a hell of a generalization that does not at all reflect what i heard from anyone on the floor.
for example for the foreign professionals i spoke to who only fly into the country once a year, this is officially their san diego replacement, almost unanimously.
i don't really care to defend the show, but i spoke to an absurd amount of people all weekend and while i won't say everything was perfect or that anyone thought so, i will say that for my part i thought things had much improved from 07 and of the people i spoke to the vast majority were coming back, even with the announcement of its return to february. |
From everything I've heard from those who went, I REALLY wish I could have gone, sounds like it's getting the kinks worked out. |
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Abhay
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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well, today's been pointless...
yeah, all the NYCC talk has all gotten me reading old articles by Bart Beaty. Jog links to one in his two very funny convention reports.
Beaty's reports on Fumetti and Angeloume. the European model...
Beaty's most recent Angeloume piece, though...
This was the first time in many years that I feared I may not take in all of the Festival.
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Taking the place of the Imaginary Museum exhibit which had ruled the main space for the past half decade, a phenomenal Argentinian comics exhibit curated by Jose Munoz.
...
The awards themselves were nicely presented, with an opening that featured an Argentinian singer, a guitarist and Jose Munoz live drawing in accompaniment -- an awesome sight.
Shit, I've been to comic conventions and I've never been serenaded by no damn Argentinian singers. The hell is that??? I demand Argentinians!
Jog links to this Beaty piece which is fantastic:
The success or failure of European festivals -- for the visitors -- is often tied to the quality of the art shows, and it's the art that makes a show important or unimportant. Give us something to do with our time!
...
I really think that there is a huge desire on the part of many fans to go to shows to buy books. That's what they most want to do. [...] But how much shopping can you really do? And is that what comics are? An opportunity to shop?
or maybe this is germane... Beaty:
The other big change though, was through some fault of the festival. A large number of small publishers boycotted this year, including L'Association, Cornelius, Fremok, Atrabile, Drozophile and, literally, dozens of others. These publishers have (correctly) noted that the festival really isn't about them and the type of work that they do. Given that things were moving into the city center this year anyway, these publishers opted to run their own festival concurrently on a side street.
What I respond to in Tom's piece is the solipsism he's describing, if I'm using that word right ... which I'm probably not ... I didn't go so I don't know if he's right or wrong about the show, and I don't care. but the solipsism he's talking about is interesting to me.
-abhay
Last edited by Abhay on Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ivan Brandon
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Abhay
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Ivan Brandon wrote: | | meaning what- the ignorance to works outside the superhero world? |
No, no, no-- what? No!
I think the portrait he paints is a bit of a convention as just a meeting place for individuals/entities pursuing their own limited agendas. I think what I'm getting from Tom's piece is he's observing a disengagement from anything besides those agendas...?
the fracturing of comics into tribes is old news, but this is sort of beyond that. (and i apologize to whoever if i'm misreading the piece of course).
the bit about: "for the first time in 14 years of con-going, I didn't receive a single recommendation for another booth's work from a comics industry professional." That bit in particular jumped out at me anyways. That's not a minor statement.
Creative people disconnected and not caring about what other creative people are doing because they only cared about getting their's...? That's not a superhero-not-superhero thing. Maybe I'm misreading him...
But also "Many people were happy to share news of their next deal or which party they were going to that night."
that's not a superhero-not-superhero thing. i don't think of it in those terms at all. to me, i think that's something else.
Or the overall show-- from his conclusion paragraphs: "The third year was a symphony of missed opportunities and a lack of engagement with the art form that should be at such a show's heart." or the last sentence of the piece: Did any of what just happened matter to comics in the slightest?
which-- tunnel vision's the only way to make it through those big cons for the creators. that's-- who'd argue that? but from reading Beaty-- it seems like ... there can be something more. the picture Beaty paints is sharply different; I have no idea what the reality is but it's not ... not a far-fetched portrait. And I'm not sure who is responsible for what. I'm not sure who should be. convention organizers? sponsors? i don't know. the hell do i know?
San Diego calls itself a celebration of pop culture, but fuck-all's really getting celebrated. Maybe some nice panels aside, and the Eisners (which NYCC doesn't have)-- it's mostly just a fleamarket. it's just capitalism. the fuck is there to celebrate about capitalism?
Tom's piece-- the way he's getting treated, he's getting treated like a CONSUMER. like, that recording of the guy trying to cancel his AOL-- being a consumer... there's a feeling of being dehumanized. and if you ask why that happened, I think the answer the piece suggests is a sort of solipsism. did you see those emails the Dark Horse guy was sending him? they were completely nuts. the hell did Dark Horse do that deserved any coverage whatsoever besides fucking SHOW UP and sell shit people don't need? but you have to agree with him that he deserves to be covered if that's the criteria by which we're judging shit now. if that's all that matters at a convention is the mere act of showing up and selling shit people don't need. that's NEWS that matters in someone's head.
what word is there for that BUT solipsism? (edit: still not sure i'm using that word correctly)
and the Dark Horse guy was just the only guy crazy enough to write. for every guy who writes a letter, there are 5 that are too batshit to figure out how to hit the send button, you know?
but like... i don't know. maybe I'm overreading Beaty. I've never been to those shows so maybe I'm just succumbing to some bullshit "grass is always greener" shit.
a marketplace is necessary. they sell shit at Angeloume. i'm not saying, it's like-- it's MARVEL's fault. or it's anyone's fault. New York's only in its third year. but it's ... i don't know, i find it interesting. aaaand, i've lost the thread... |
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